[pgarci01]

What does this mean? Are they redesigning it instead of an MMC?

http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?g=honda-automobiles&id=6541-en

 

[rogazilla]

That's very possible. 2013 Accord is suppose to be redesigned from ground up with Honda's earth dream technology.

Crosstour is based on Accord which means they might base the next one on the new accord platform instead of trying to keep the current chasis.

New Accord are rumored to be smaller than the current one. Look for big increase in mpg number due to honda's own direct injection tech and new transmission that come along with it. The new electric 4wd that's on the CRV could make its way to the new crosstour since it is supposely more seemless and lighter than the hydraulic one we have.

new hybrid tech are going to be available on the new Accord and would be interesting to see if crosstour gets the stop-start tech.

 

[pgarci01]

Man, if the changes are significant I smell an early trade-in in my future lol...

The new V6 engine for the sedan is rumored to pump out at least 308 HP... Almost 40 HP more than the current model and is supposed to deliver better fuel economy... Also heard that the sedan will also be offered in a 6 speed manual...

The new accord is supposed to be a lot more tech savvy and if the new CT is going to incorporate these things as well I will definitely be interested in changing cars...

 

[rogazilla]

lol yeah! if it does incorporate the new tech, the new crosstour will be a good advance from what we have.

I thought long and hard late last year knowing Accord remodeling is coming up. But decided to go for it anyway. My thought process is to convince wife for a little sports car (another S2000 or miata) later on and I won't miss not having manual on the crosstour or if I want to have anything more sporty.

well Accord will be out later this year (I think) as 2013 model but crosstour will only be a 2013 concept and probably won't really hit the show room until 2014 as a 2015 model I think. They will probably see how Accord is received since that's the bread and butter for Honda.

 

[chefmark]

lol yeah! if it does incorporate the new tech, the new crosstour will be a good advance from what we have.

I thought long and hard late last year knowing Accord remodeling is coming up. But decided to go for it anyway. My thought process is to convince wife for a little sports car (another S2000 or miata) later on and I won't miss not having manual on the crosstour or if I want to have anything more sporty.

well Accord will be out later this year (I think) as 2013 model but crosstour will only be a 2013 concept and probably won't really hit the show room until 2014 as a 2015 model I think. They will probably see how Accord is received since that's the bread and butter for Honda.

I agree, concept is just that a concept......2014 at the earliest

 

[pgarci01]

I'm more interested in the redesigned CT than the redesigned Accord cause everyone and their mother buys the Accord sedan and that's never going to change... My only interest in the Accord right now is that a lot of its new features will carry over to the CT when it is redesigned... I really hope it continues to stand out which should be easier now that it doesn't share the Accord name...

 

[Aceman]

A very wise man, not an old man, but a man nevertheless , once predicted that the next CT iteration will be a minor facelift to spruce it up a bit and maybe give it a slightly more mainstream kind of appeal. . .I don't think any new powertrain changes will happen (with the outside chance of a 6spd automatic) nor any major tech, amenities (possible exception of updated hard-drive based navi), etc. I bet that most of the sheet metal stays the same or at least is very iterative (like the recent CRV update). I think this update is mainly to address the sales not hitting their targets and the Honda America CEO has been quoted as saying:

In the case of the Crosstour, Iwamura pledged, "With further refinement of styling and performance, it will be a very good success, a leading model."

Either way, I'm not too concerned. . .Honda being a perennial champ in resale value (making them one of the most economical cars to own), it wouldn't be the typical hit one would take to trade in only after a few years. . .(if, hypothetically - there was something new and amazingly alluring with the 2013. . .).

And the good news is that with a dedicated and engaging forum like this is growing to be, it's quite possible that any 2013 goodies might be able to be retro-fitted to our "gen 1 CTs."

-ace

 

[Aceman]

. . .
The new V6 engine for the sedan is rumored to pump out at least 308 HP... Almost 40 HP more than the current model and is supposed to deliver better fuel economy... Also heard that the sedan will also be offered in a 6 speed manual. . .

That's pretty close to a funny number. . .(I'll come back to that reference in a couple paragraphs) we have the Honda J engine 60deg V6. Specifically, the current CT & Accord have the J35Z2 (3.5 liter, 2nd variation. . .other variations have been in the Ridgeline, Oddyesey, etc) which gets 271hp on 10.5:1 compression on regular pump gas. The only higher HP J35 in the Honda stable is the J35Z6 which only goes to Acura and gets 280hp on 91 octane due to 11.2:1 compression.

So I'm thinking what's the most HP that Honda has mated a 5spd automatic w/ its real time AWD system, and the CT is it. So me thinks that if the CT is getting 306hp (which I think is like 3:1 odds) that it is getting a powertrain change.

Because. . .the Acura TL w/ SH-AWD has a J37A4 (addl 200cc's of displacement) connected to the SH-AWD system (11.2:1 compression on what I would think has to be 91 octane).

The "real time awd" system is the more economical one focused on traction and safety.
- most of the time heavily biased towards the front, but can instantaneously send power to the rear based on differences in wheel rotation speed (which they say is a quicker decision than waiting for slip)
- won't roll back when accelerating from an incline on a stop
- can send power from left side to right side and vice versa, but not to a particular wheel. . .so while the rear isn't a fixed 50/50 split of torque, it also doesn't vary on its own like a RWD car
- uses VSA (vehicle stability assist) which can quickly actuate the brake/s on any wheel/s to help keep car in line in an understeer or oversteer situation. . .this is a very traditional kind of "traction control" that has been around for awhile

The SH-AWD system is a more complex system that is oriented on safety, traction, and performance.
- most of the time biased to the front
- can send power left and right and front to back in any way it sees fit
- also relies on VSA to keep the vehicle in line
- (biggest difference) when accelerating out of a corner, it could theoretically lay down 100% of the engine power to the one wheel with the most traction and keep the vehicle pointed the way you want. . .this is the way they address the "torque steer" that adversely affects handling in any powerful FWD car too. . .instant application of throttle under all traction conditions

In essence I was trying to take that 308hp # and see what in the Honda parts bin could give us an AWD v6 CT with that kind of #s and it would be to essentially swap the TL sh-awd power train over. In doing so it would also sort of kill the CT's image as being somewhat economical for a larger awd vehicle (by the change in gas octane alone). I'm not sure about the weight of the sh-awd system vs the real time awd system, I doubt the difference is great, and I do know that the J37 engine weighs less than the J35 due to some materials differences. Less weight up front is always good for handling.

The prospects of these kind of changes used to be easier to predict when each plant made one vehicle, or one chassis with very closely related vehicles. So if the CRV was getting an update, the CT would too (the East Liberty Ohio plant makes the Element, CRV, and CT), etc. And those changes would always take place during a plant's annual summer shutdown (which is usually when they change the tooling and dies over for the updated model. . .the East Liberty shutdown happens at the end of May/beginning of June). But Honda is weird, I don't know how they run their plants. . .they update vehicles independently and not necessarily during a plant shutdown.

Part of why GM used to suck bananas is the B, J, F -body (for example) plants would all assume identical changes chassis wide on a cycle you could set your watch to.

-ace

 

[pgarci01]

I think the dramatic increase in power is due to the fact that the new engines will be Honda's first use of direct injection...

Here's the article on the new Honda engines:

http://blog.caranddriver.com/honda-...njection-to-its-v6-and-four-cylinder-engines/

 

[Aceman]

If I get a Honda w/ DI the first thing I'm doing is plugging off my EGR. I'm still not convinced that EGR + DI live together harmoniously. . .

But thanks for pointing me to that article Pgarci01. . .about 2 years ago I cxl'd all my auto mags in an effort to save some time (they were distracting me from valuable online reading ), but unfortunately I miss some rather important news now and then.

-ace

PS - I still say that a switch to sh-awd is feasible if they go with an engine making 300+ hp in the CT because we haven't seen the "real time awd" version get higher HP engines.

PPS - I have no idea how the Ridgeline's VTM-4 works

 

[Aceman]

. . . The new electric 4wd that's on the CRV could make its way to the new crosstour since it is supposely more seemless and lighter than the hydraulic one we have. . .

Ok they're really starting to tick me off with the ambiguous drivetrain naming schemes!

Both the 2012 CRV & the CT use hydraulic components to engage, I thought they were similar, I guess I could look at parts diagrams to see if that's true or not.

-ace

 

[chefmark]

I know a guy who knows guy at Honda, 2014 Crosstour

Ok, Maybe I do not know a guy who knows a guy but, my guess is it will not be much different that the European Version.

 

[Xaque]

Ok, Maybe I do not know a guy who knows a guy but, my guess is it will not be much different that the European Version.

Ah yes, the Accord Wagon... The reason why so many people were originally disappointed when the Crosstour was revealed.



http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/30/u-s-acura-tsx-sport-wagon-not-motivated-by-honda-crosstour-feed/

 

[Aceman]

Ah yes, the Accord Wagon... The reason why so many people were originally disappointed when the Crosstour was revealed.



http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/30/u-s-acura-tsx-sport-wagon-not-motivated-by-honda-crosstour-feed/

It's a cool vehicle, but I'm not buying that it would be a CT replacement, they target totally different audiences.

First, that platform has been here since 2008, so why switch to it now? (Highly unlikely for an existing vehicle to switch platforms entirely from one model year to the next)

Second, Honda doesn't think it can sell wagons, even cool ones, for a long time. And I don't quite buy the "disappointed when the CT was revealed [based on comparisons w/ the euro Touring]" because that exact vehicle has been available here for several years with an Acura badge, it's called the TSX Touring. And it sorta sucks! Only 200hp, a sporty vehicle with no manual tranny, and FWD only. . .at least that Lexus is model wagon is RWD with a few more ponies.

The "touring" platform is very limiting, they've never put anything bigger than a 2.4liter gas engine in it (europe gets some cool diesels) and it has never sent power anywhere besides the front wheels.

That particular vehicle has been fine tuned to European/Japanese lifestyles and taxes. . .aka small engines and FWD. In Europe FWD Audis outsell quattro models! I would suspect it would never see a V6 or AWD is because that vehicle is built at the Japanese Sayama plant which builds all the Accords for Japan & Europe and none of those are V6s (only 2.0 & 2.4 4cyls and maybe the diesel engines too). So. . .it's just not setup for that. They're not going to go re-tooling plants and shifting production around so they can sell 4000 wagons a year in the US to people that, for the most part, can be satisfied with what's currently in the lineup.

At the bare minimum, the US market will demand a V6 and awd in their Honda CUV. So you have to sort of look at what could support that, where it could be made, etc. . .

Wishful thinking, I <heart> wagons myself. . .but history, infrastructure, and demand tell me that thing isn't replacing the CT any time soon.

-ace

 

[pgarci01]

It's a cool vehicle, but I'm not buying that it would be a CT replacement, they target totally different audiences.

First, that platform has been here since 2008, so why switch to it now? (Highly unlikely for an existing vehicle to switch platforms entirely from one model year to the next)

Second, Honda doesn't think it can sell wagons, even cool ones, for a long time. And I don't quite buy the "disappointed when the CT was revealed [based on comparisons w/ the euro Touring]" because that exact vehicle has been available here for several years with an Acura badge, it's called the TSX Touring. And it sorta sucks! Only 200hp, a sporty vehicle with no manual tranny, and FWD only. . .at least that Lexus is model wagon is RWD with a few more ponies.

The "touring" platform is very limiting, they've never put anything bigger than a 2.4liter gas engine in it (europe gets some cool diesels) and it has never sent power anywhere besides the front wheels.

That particular vehicle has been fine tuned to European/Japanese lifestyles and taxes. . .aka small engines and FWD. In Europe FWD Audis outsell quattro models! I would suspect it would never see a V6 or AWD is because that vehicle is built at the Japanese Sayama plant which builds all the Accords for Japan & Europe and none of those are V6s (only 2.0 & 2.4 4cyls and maybe the diesel engines too). So. . .it's just not setup for that. They're not going to go re-tooling plants and shifting production around so they can sell 4000 wagons a year in the US to people that, for the most part, can be satisfied with what's currently in the lineup.

At the bare minimum, the US market will demand a V6 and awd in their Honda CUV. So you have to sort of look at what could support that, where it could be made, etc. . .

Wishful thinking, I <heart> wagons myself. . .but history, infrastructure, and demand tell me that thing isn't replacing the CT any time soon.

-ace

Especially now that the Civic-based Acura ILX is going to replace the TSX this Spring, rebadging the TSX Wagon to the Crosstour would seem cheap and pointless, especially since it currently doesn't have AWD or a V6 like Ace said (which is weird cause you can get the TSX sedan with a V6).

 

[chefmark]

I think we are missing the point, Ask yourself a few question; why did the CT not have higher sales, why did the Vensa sell more than the CT & what are the trends for the future cars.
In my humble opinion SUV’s have a bad name and gas mileage is a big thing. I do not think the design of Accord Wagon is what we will see but it will be in that neighborhood with a lot of technology. I would not be surprised to see a turbo and or an electric version. I still think we will see AWD but closer to Audi’s Quattro system and with any luck closer to Audi’s interiors (wishful thinking). Remember the BMW X6 is not selling well either and it looks like the CT. SO, again in my opinion the next steps is something closer to a station wagon and please get that picture in your head of the Impala station wagon out of your head. I go back to Audi and what they have coming down the pike the Audi Allroad. In Honda eyes the CT in its current styling did not work.

 

[pgarci01]

I completely agree with you that they will probably dial it back quite a bit in terms of styling but what I'm hoping is that they keep what made me like the CT to begin with... I'm sick and tired of sites like autoguide looking for the ugliest CT pic they can find just because they don't like it... If they showed some of the pics I have maybe ppl wouldn't be so turned off by it... PPL TO THIS DAY STILL STOP AND COMPLIMENT ME LOL...

I mean come on just once show a pic at least like the attached one when talking about it (old pic):

 

[rogazilla]

http://automobiles.honda.com/cr-v/features.aspx?Feature=4wd

Yeah they have an updated 4wd. I read some where stated that it is more compact and lighter than the one we got in CT.

I was not sold on DI because of the EGR problem. Looks like Honda did something to their EGR valve in the "Earth Dream" technology. It remain to be seen whether it will be effectively resolve the carbon build up on the valves.

 

[Aceman]

http://automobiles.honda.com/cr-v/features.aspx?Feature=4wd

Yeah they have an updated 4wd. I read some where stated that it is more compact and lighter than the one we got in CT.

I was not sold on DI because of the EGR problem. Looks like Honda did something to their EGR valve in the "Earth Dream" technology. It remain to be seen whether it will be effectively resolve the carbon build up on the valves.

God they are such jag-wads . . ."earth dream technology. . ." don't they know that at least a handful of their consumers want some actual technical info?

Did you know the CT's awd system activates when traction is "iffy?"

In 3 minutes of research this is what I've found:
CRV: system called "real time AWD" and weighs 121lb more than 2wd, uses some hydraulics

CT: system called "real time 4wd" and weighs 183lb more than 2wd, uses some hydraulics

Personally I don't think the moniker "4wd" should be used in a vehicle with a transverse mounted engine, it just gets confusing when you do that. . .but, at least it's more descriptive than "earth dream."

-ace

 

[rogazilla]

yeah the wonderful marketing people who comes up with 4WD/AWD/real time awd/and blah blah blah... They have really uses those terms loosely.

As for the CRV's new system, I have read from multiple reviews and obviously weight saving is the big advantage but being electronically controlled, it senses the difference in front and rear rotation speed and actually activate the rear wheels more than ours (which wait for front to slip). Hence it is more seemless.

I read on one of motortrend or caranddriver review is that taking off at the line and give it a bit more throttle, you will notice the older CRV's front comes up while the 2012 version notice the difference in tire rotation speed and transfer that power to rear and let the car launch more smoothly. I have never tried one myself, so take it for a grain of salt. But I am up for any weight saving on the CT. The only complain I have is that it weights a lot and it shows when driving a bit spirited.

edit: Found the review from MT:

"Then there's the AWD system, which is now much more active. Whereas the old system was effectively a 2WD unit until the front wheels slipped, the new system routes power rearward right from the start. Rather than let the rear axle go slack at a stop, the new system maintains pressure on the drivetrain, and routes power to the front and rear wheels under acceleration for faster, smoother launches. To the average driver, it will simply feel like the rear end isn't squatting as much under acceleration, as there's less weight transfer. Once underway and at a steady cruising speed, the system reverts to 2WD for better efficiency."

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/suvs/1201_2012_honda_cr_v_first_drive/viewall.html#ixzz1psAUrxui
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